Politically incorrect fragrance notes?

Parfumo has been asked by a user to remove the term „Oriental“ from the fragrance notes database and replace it with the term „ambery“. This proposal goes back to an intiative promoted by the British Society of Perfumers to ban the word „Oriental“. They see it as „outdated, and in some contexts, offensive“.

https://bsp.org.uk/wp-content/...

https://www.perfumerflavorist....

I would like to open the discussion of this topic with our statement. Please feel free to join in, we are curious to learn about your opinions!

At Parfumo, many people are volunteering in creating the world’s most complete fragrance data base with the most precise fragrance notes. The note „amber“ is already very difficult to handle. In some languagues –such as German – it has two different meanings: amber resin and ambergris (glandular secretions of a whale). This can make research complicated since sometimes our sources are not precise on it. Now we are going to face further confusion, and we are not happy about that.

As for now, we arenot planning any changes in the fragrance notes database.

The terms „Orient“and „Oriental“ are used differently in different parts of the world. In my country (Germany) the Orient roughly extends from Morocco to Afghanistan. Thus, an Oriental fragrance contains notes typically used in the Arab perfume tradition. I have learned that in the USA and maybe other places, it is common to include India and Asia in these terms - an ignorance, that indeed may be perceived as offensive in some contexts. So, instead of imposing a new worldwide social taboo, can we please work on improving the geographical knowledge in the USA?

At the moment, we see many new users coming over from Fragrantica. They complain about homophobic incidents there. I see the proposal of changing the database in this context of having a „safe space“ for everybody. As a German gay man, I would like to state my personal attitude towards this wish:

When I had my coming out back in 1982, there were discussions on how we should call ourselves. At the end, we all agreed on the German term „schwul“. At that time, this was an extremely derogative word, and you wouldn’t find it in the dictionary. Today, it is not. „Schwul“ comes from „schwül“ and refers to the discomfort of hot and humid weather. „Schwul“ is exactly what we are since we sometimes cause such discomfort to some heterosexual men. We have come a long way from criminal prosecution in the 1960ies to formal legal equality today. We can take pride in what we have achieved by simply coming out as „schwul“ - but we would not have achieved much by politely asking society not to use rude and offensive words on us. Maybe, other people can learn from us?

Gay men in Germany took an offensive term away from the haters and are continuing to do so. I am not willing to grant any song, any fashion, any perfume, or any fragrance note to those who hate. We should all work on giving neutral meanings to formerly offensive terms, and not vice versa.

Denouncing formerly neutral terms such as „Oriental fragrance“ as offensive is a trap. It feeds the haters with new words that they can use. And even worse, it can mark those who continue to use these terms in good will as offenders.

I think it is clear that we will not allow hate speech on Parfumo. On the other side, we have to ask you for tolerance towards each other, even if you read something that may occur politically incorrect to you. People are different, and not everybody is eloquent or educated enough, or just willing to obey to the latest social standards that somebody has announced.

You are absolutely right. Orient I thought is East so an oriental an Eastern or Far Eastern fragrance. In 1977 Ysl launched Opium and gave it this name which was considered  infamous connotation because opium is not therapeutic when smoked or turned to morphine injected. Yves had an artistic inspiration that would produce images and advertisements that carried Chinese crafts and arts. 

Oriental shows an origin and that's it. It is very hypocritical to call the word discriminating when we still have neo fascists who as we all know accept only Caucasian people. We should have made it difficult as  societies for these people neo fascists to be part of our societies, but nope. The whole Europe has governments now that actually promote aggressive facism. 

Sentiment and emotions can be nasty not words like the adjective oriental. 

o·ri·ent /ˈôrēənt/ noun 1. LITERARY the countries of Asia, especially eastern Asia.

English definition for ya. It refers to East Asia, not only the Middle East, and definitely nowhere near Northern Africa. So it definitely makes sense to update the mistranslation from German if the German word you are currently using refers to the Arab world including North Africa, and excludes East Asia. 

I am not personally offended by the word "oriental" but I'd rather educate you on the English definition of the word rather than have you think that all English speakers are geographically illiterate.

hey everyone, I'm from the German perfume site. The topic affects me because I personally deal with language

I think a ban on language is far too exaggerated in this case.

"Orient" is a colloquial geographical term that doesn't offend anyone. Anyone who feels offended by a scent being described as "oriental" should first look for the problem within themselves.

Of course there are words that have the ability to hurt other people, specific groups of people. It's good that this is being thought about sensitively at this time.

However, if we start prohibiting from the word "oriental" - (not in relation to people, but to an object, namely perfume), then where should we continue and stop?

In all areas of life there are people or small groups of people who have a problem with something. If we start to ban or change everything, we humans will no longer be free. Reminder: “Oriental” is absolutely not an offensive term!

We not only have to change, we also have to be able to simply endure something. This is especially true for loud, always demanding groups of people.

By the way: amber just sounds absolutely inappropriate and misleading.

Best regards!

Thank you for this clarification. It is interesting, that „oriental“ has different meanings in Europe and the US so maybe this is the reason why the whole discussion originally arose (thinking of of the Oriental Pearl Tower in Shanghai).

And it might be a sign that it is helpful to talk about these terms and be aware of the fact that we all have different backgrounds and use terms in different cultural contexts.  

In my opinion, words should therefore not be banned, but we should see this as an opportunity to talk about language and our different views and cultural influences in order to avoid misunderstandings.

If we ban terms, we only end up confirming those who use these terms in an abusive or defamatory way.

@Omnipotato 

May I ask you a question? Despite the fact that in the US the „Orient“ includes also the Far East: How is „oriental“ commonly understood in the fragrance community? If an American reads „oriental“ in a perfume description, what would be the connotation? 

@Cardea Before becoming interested in fragrances as a hobby, if I read "oriental" in a fragrance description, I would have no idea what it means. I might guess it either refers something Middle-Eastern or East Asian, but it would not make me think of any specific scent. Nowadays I've understood it vaguely refers to a non-gourmand vanilla based fragrance but it's a very catch-all and non-specific term, unlike, say "fougere" or "gourmand." I don't think the word should be banned but I don't think it's particularly useful in describing anything concrete in terms of perfumery, since it refers to a location and not an actual scent profile.

@Cardea in general in the United States, "oriental" is seen as a very backwards/uneducated/dated way of referring to all East Asians. I don't think it has the same connotations as the n-word, but people will definitely look at you weird if you call someone "oriental," and most probably think you're racist.

Hello everybody, a professional linguist here. "Banning" words would of course be radical, however sensitive use of words and not diminishing other people's perceptions would be polite. People from the Western countries have no right to define how people from the Eastern countries feel about the term "Oriental". Many Asian people think that the word is similar to the n-word so would you use the n-word (even though the original meaning of the word is simply "black") in 2023 on a public forum? I bet you wouldn't. So why should the o-word be any different? Words have original meanings but they change over time and can get pejorative and offensive connotations. Also I'm challenging you to really think if that term even describes the fragrance correctly? According to perfumers for example, the term amber would actually be more accurate.

Edit: Oh, @Omnipotato  was actually faster to post about the similar thoughts. As you can see, my points were almost exactly the same.

@Omnipotato 

That is interesting, thank you for the insights.

I would say, here it is more commonly used and even restaurants call themselves „oriental“. This covers mostly the Middle East and the spices/dishes which originally come from this region or are used heavily there.

Even before I became interested in fragrances I would have associated (a mixture of) scents like ginger, cardamom, (black) cumin, pomegranate, turmeric, chili, aniseed, resin, clove, nutmeg, honey, incense, saffron, vanilla, rose and cinnamon with the term oriental.

I never thought about the possibility that it could be completely different in other places in the world. 

For me, this part of the discussion is much more instructive than the discussion about whether a term should be banned because it is supposedly used in an offensive way. 
Still, I stand by my opinion that a ban on terms only proves right those who misuse the term. But I have to admit that internationally „oriental“ at this point might be a misleading term in the fragrance community if we don’t have a common understanding.

@Lempi I was mostly just responding to @Cardea's question about the word's connotations in the US, but I do agree that amber is a much better word to describe that scent profile. Unfortunate that apparently in German, it causes confusion.

@Omnipotato Thank you. And I completely agree. I'm from Finland and we don't have that term in our own language at all (our language isn't Indo-European) so we're not having this debate here. However I have followed it with interest in the Indo-European language countries and also I have lots of Asian friends who have given insights to this. We should listen to them more and be sensitive about their feelings.

@Cardea What do the people who have Asian background think about this in your country? Is the use of the word okay to them, how are they feeling?

@Cardea For those notes, we already have all the descriptive words needed in the perfume types: I would say something with those notes would be spicy, sweet, resinous. Why do we need the additional "oriental?"

This, exactly. 👍

Understood and maybe that's why we (not we both personally, I mean generally US-EU) talking past each other on this topic.

Here, nobody would ever call a person „oriental“. As far as I know (and other Germans please correct me) this term is absolutely limited to cuisine, scents or maybe some kind of art or clothing. 

It is not because oriental is seen as an unappropriate or outdated term for a person‘s ethnicity. It has just never been used in this way and would sound completely weird. Most people wouldn’t think you are a racist. Instead they would think you just don’t know the meaning of this word because they immediately had the connotation of oriental kitchen or spices not of ethnicity.

@Apicius it seems as though @Cardea got to the crux of the issue and that "oriental" in English and German not only mean different things, they are used in different ways (referring to objects/culture vs referring to people). Is it possible to simply "translate" the word "oriental" in German to "ambery" in English, instead of having to change the German site to accommodate? 

From your point of view I absolutely understand your comment. 

For me it is like questioning the term „fougère“ or „gourmand“ and asking „Why do we need them? We could just say herbal, aromatic, slightly sweet, woody - instead of fougère.“

Also I would say that there might be non-oriental fragrances which are spicy, sweet and resinous. Just as non-fougères with lavender and oakmoss. It is all about terms the connotation which at the end always depends on your experience the cultural environment.

It is not my intention to provoke with my statement. I just want to explain that this term - here - is an easy way to describe a certain group of fragrances. Even for people who are not deep into fragrances.

@Cardea that totally makes sense. It is a "genre" of perfumes like "fougere," "chypre," "gourmand," rather than a word to describe a specific scent: "aquatic," "woody," "sweet," etc.

Now that I have been able to read through all the comments here, especially those of @Omnipotato , whom I want to thank for really broadening my horizons today, I have to answer this question in a more differentiated way.

Provided that someone with asian background has been in Germany since early childhood and went never abroad for a longer time I would assume this person would be highly irritated if he/she was called „oriental“. Most of them would likely either think the same as Apicius in the opening statement („Improve your geographical knowledge!“) or as I mentioned, they would find it just weird using the term „oriental“ for the ethnicity. Maybe a combination of both thoughts.

After the conversation here I would add that there might be a group of people who would indeed find the term offensive because they experienced other, disrespectful usage of the term oriental. 

But again, it is really really unlikely that „oriental“ is used here in the context of ethnicity. 

Absoluty on point. 

That is likely the reason why we are struggeling with the idea of banning this term. It would deprive us of an entire genre which is not only used in perfumery. We have oriental cookbooks, oriental restaurants and even oriental clothing which have never been considered offensive. Even the people with middle eastern background use this term.

This said, I see the problem that some people, who have a different connotation, struggle with this term because for them it is not a genre. Complicated. 

@Lempi 

As described above for me „amber“ is a different, more specific term than „oriental“. Also „amber“ has two different meanings here. It absolutely wouldn’t be a proper substitution for the whole oriental genre.
 
The comparison to the N-word is difficult because obviously this term has been used in an inappropriate way internationally, not only limited to certain countries. Other as oriental which just seems to have different meanings in different countries. 

@Omnipotato: I currently have no idea how we could do this without a rework of our fragrance notes directory. A few years ago, we had a project to classify all fragrance notes in a hierarchical way. Please take a look if you haven't seen it yet:

https://www.parfumo.com/Fragra...

So, we have one classification for "Amber" and one for "Oriental notes". The classification was done based on our personal experiences with fragrances and their fragrance pyramids, and so, the decisions we took may surely be debatable in many cases. Actually, I played the most part in it because my personal situation allowed me to put some time into it.

I identified amber notes generally as something dry and smoky, maybe synthetic. You will find many synthetics in this category that the aromachemical companies described as amber-like. The single notes can refer to more than one category.

Dry and smoky is something different than oriental. An oriental fragrance can either be something with ingredients related to the Arab tradition (i.e. Patchouli), something broad along the tonka/vanilla line or in its broadest meaning something that is not fougère. 

I think in our global world, we should not have country-specific classifications. I would love to see a rework done in the future, maybe in collaboration with professional perfumers who have a better experience with single notes and the synthetics behind them, or maybe with a more commuity based approach.

So, do we really have to throw these two different cassifications into one pot?  Perception of fragrance notes may be subject to change over time, but as for now, I would like to wait for the impact of the BSP initiative, or if it has any impact at all.

Would be the best translation from German meaning of oriental, be arabian?

@Cardea Thank you so much for the interesting discussion and all the great clarifications. I mostly agree with you, however also the n-word has had different meanings and uses in different languages but it's now agreed to be pejorative everywhere nevertheless because many people find it so offensive. What I find interesting is why Western people are so passionate about the o-term? Words and languages are constantly changing in different ways and that has been happening since the beginning of times so why couldn't we invent a neutral word for that genre of fragrances and food?

Also, "oriental" as a perfume genre refers to a place (or people, depending on the language) but other perfume genres refer to the actual smell: gourmand, aquatic, fresh, fougère, floral etc. See the difference? In addition, the term "oriental" has definitely some echoes of cultural appropriation if it's used to refer also to other than actually Eastern-made fragrances. A Western fragrance that is "oriental"? Sounds similar to me like these Western made operas of "oriental" stories that were more about the twisted ideals of "the mystical orient" than the actual people and stories and culture from there. And Western people portraying those Eastern people. That's orientalism. Too many of these so called "oriental" fragrances made by Westerners are more about the idea of "the myths of orient" than actually similar to the real Arabic or Asian fragrances. Plus in the east there's not only one homogenous type of fragrances or one type of culture, there are tons of them so refering to the whole east with one single word feels similar to me than the fact that Western people referred in the past to "Africa" like it would have been only one country despite its various different nations and cultures. So even though the name of the genre would refer only to the place and not the people, it still isn't completely non-problematic. I would prefer a term that would refer to the actual smell instead of place.

Oriental doesn't have any negative connotation by itself, is used to refer to specific regions of the world, and in perfumery it refers to a specific set of notes that go beyond the ingredients used in oriental perfumery or fragrances that evoke imagery of "orient", so I don't see why it should be removed from parfuno's database, nor where the notion that it's a reductive or offensive term comes from. 

If you don't consider the term offensive or negative, that doesn't mean that it isn't. And please differentiate the original vs. current meanings and connotations of the word, they are not the same. And the imagery of "orient" is also quite offensive, it's related to orientalism as I stated above. The point is that several Asian people don't like that term being used so we should listen to them and ask them.

I am surprised that you think, we are passionate about the oriental term. I mean, you suggest we should just invent a new word for another which is for a lot of people not problematic at all because we just do not use it in the way it is understood in some other regions of the world. Imagine, I would say the word „tree“ is used in an offensive way somewhere in Africa so I highly recommend using something else. Wouldn’t it cause discussions? In my opinion language is nothing you just invent.

In the german forum we had a short conversation about this topic and I said that I remember times when jokes about blondes where on trend. Still sometimes you can hear a comment like „I am not blonde“, meaning „I am not dumb“. And in the fragrance and beauty community we see a lot of descriptions mentioning „old“ or „mature“, nearly always having a negative connotation because everybody seems to seek for youth.
Would anything change if we tried to cancel all the vocabulary we find offensive? And I do not mean the terms which are nearly exclusively used to defame others like the N-word. I am talking about words from common parlance which are used in a problematic way from only a few stupid people.

I see all your points and I also agree with you, that a term which relates to the smell might have been a better fit. And yes, you are right, „oriental“ is presumably often only a perception of what people think something oriental would smell like which leads to the question how much bias went into these classifications.