Forum Post Over At "F" Concerning Perfumes For Gay

There are many Parfumo members busy on Basenotes AND on Fragrantica.

But we would not openly advertise one over the other - that is, in my opinion, not a good idea.

You can write to your friends in their PRIVATE e-mail account, not in the host's PM message box, and "recruit" whoever you want and whenever you want.

They will automatically spend most of their time at the site(s) they find best.

You're right, it's not a good idea, even while tempted I was aware of that which is why I let the idea stew and settle down. Heh.

I just think people should know that there are alternatives if they are feeling disenfranchised, which unfortunately with current events is the case for quite a few people... not all of them within the handful I keep up with personally.

None of this would be an issue if there was actual forum moderation. The main excuse seems to be lack of manpower but it's not that difficult to pick a few forum members whose decorum they appreciate, ask them if they'd like to voluntarily moderate, rise and repeat for each language version of the site. Most large forums run on volunteer moderation. Even pinning up some forum guidelines would help.

A while ago I innocently referenced Parfumo on the forums when referring to a perfume found here that was not in their database, it gets replaced with a huge ##STOP SPAM## message, I was rather surprised. Made me feel more like some kind of asset than a member, that's why I decided to remove my reviews there, even if it's just a drop into an ocean.

Even without yesterday's events it would be nice for all related sites to say "Hey, if you like this site, feel free to try ___ !" Perhaps in the age of ad-based funding that's too idealistic but we all love the same thing; perfume. If not for the amount of time I spend posting on forums already I would be active at BN too.

Quite a few members are aware of Parfumo...they either just don't post in the forums, or they aren't interested in it.

For the fun of it, some members pick different avatars or screen names on different sites, but after a while, we all know one another.

It seems silly to me to hide out under different identities on different websites.

There is no hiding out. Instead, I try to promote good will and understanding and frown about group behavior and mentality.

The main focus ought to be on perfumes. Political, religious and sexual orientation agendas belong elsewhere. If some people want "to climb the barricades" and promote their non perfume related agendas, they will find another venue to be heard. Or, open your own website and post whatever.

What an anomaly that they wouldn't be interested in other perfume sites. Is that from personal knowledge? I certainly understand beginning lurking, but those that are so passionate about perfume, you would think would want to share their insights, etc...

The only unusual thing is that Fragrantica blocks references to Parfumo with ##SPAM##

whereas Parfumo allows references and links to Fragrantica topics which can be shared. For instance, there was a long topic "The Arabic Perfume Oil Experiment" which I started over at Fragrantica, and I brought in the link for the Parfumo members to read - and nothing was "spam-blocked".

That is peculiar to Fragrantica that Management sees the need to filter out references to Parfumo.

Meanwhile word of mouth advertising brings in new members every day.

Yes, exactly. I assume it's to do with ad revenue and an unwillingness to part with any of it, though as a member of both I still click just as much around Fragrantica. I would say it's like grasping sand or holding a butterfly...

Well, since we are guests on any website that we don't own, it is only polite to adhere to the Rules of the Host.

That whole drama over there was unnecessary. The members think that this was their speaking arena, and it is not.

If they don't like it, they have to open up their own website.

It would be easier for all members to respect the rules of the host if they were listed somewhere but the only sticky of that type is under the Individual Member's area, and even that is basically "don't complain if you don't like what you read".

Sure people will leave if they feel they need to, but it's not a great solution. Members lose a place they enjoy, the forum loses a voice and ad revenue. It comes down to a basic request for respect... for members to respect each other's differences and the tone of the site and for Fragrantica to provide a reasonable level of moderation.

I am not sure whether "ad revenue" has anything to do with what is being said on those Forum boards. In my opinion, they are just installed as a favor to the members to talk about perfumes and perfumery and I doubt that anyone of the industrial "spies" or "evaluators" bother reading what is being said in the discussions. Perhaps they read reviews, that could be.

The discussion boards don't bring in any "ad revenue". The ads are shown on the Front Page or on the Perfume Page of Fragrantica.

Whatever the reasons, as guests we should behave as guests. If I had a party, I would show unruly guests the door. Same on discussion boards. I think that Management (Zoka) over at Fragrantica has shown enough patience. The only vexing thing was, in the past, and recently, that topics get taken down suddenly and leaving the members hang in wonder, "now why was that?"

An Explanation and a firm set of Guidelines should repeatedly and visibly be shown so that then, they can be enforced, if needed.

An Afterthought I just had -

Some time during the whole discussion Zoka suggested that members could put controversial topics under the section "Individual Members Topics" which corresponds, more or less, to the Blog Article space here on Parfumo.

This blog space permits "mini blogs" by members. I have great fun using this space. However, it was repeatedly said, right here on Parfumo, that the blog article space should be used for "perfume related topics" and not just any venting.

After a while, the group recognizes the climate and all is well.

Please, Florette, speak in English. Not many are among the members who speak or understand French.

Although it is clear that the rules seem very important to some, most forums on animal or anarchy or fashion, etc. .. include sections as off topic chat or community. meaning 'speaking arena.' The rules generally relate to the responsibility in which subjects are discussed. The problems that have arisen there have nothing to do with the subject.

It is hypocritical to provide a section where people feel they can discuss other matters then be censored when these topics are unpleasant to the administration or members become irresponsible and immature. Most forums have moderators specifically for these sections.

Forgive me if I'm wrong.
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I have to say that this seems frequently to be a fact there.

Maybe a website starts out with Rules and then, life continues, circumstances outside in the real world change, and inevitably ... since members are real people with a real life outside then begin to interact in the virtual world and their changing ideas and life styles reflect in the discussions.

Then, Management has to re-evaluate how they stand. It is Management who makes/adapts/changes the Rules.

Moderators only follow what Management lies down as acceptable.

It is not clear how to keep a diversified crowd from all beliefs all over the planet calm without ever a controversy.

So, it could be a case-by-case situation.

As long as the "tone is respectful" no big drama should ensue.

It is because members fly off the handle, that drama begins, continues, gets squashed, while

contemplating what set of Rules (or Newly Adapted Rules) should now be in place for the sake of order.

Pardon? Je ne comprends pas ce que vous dites. Voulez-vous bien repeter la chose en Anglais, s'il vous plait.

Pardon me? I don't understand what you are saying. Would you kindly repeat the matter in English, please.

I don't think that Fragrantica is full of self-involved and conceited people who know nothing about anything.

It seems to me a mixed group of perfume lovers from all over the world who ever so often get into each others hair when they speak of other subjects than perfume.

But if she is, that's because she is one of the owners/mods of the site. As a former leader at functions that oversaw many individuals, I can understand the need for rules. Without rules, chaos reigns. Life within that group function becomes disorderly and those that are looking for leadership become lost and disoriented. The ones that are bending the rules are really people with bullying streaks, people with more air in their words than substance. When the leader stands up to them, and explains the rules of the group in a decent, factual way that the other person can understand, then chaos is removed (hopefully). But the leader must always be on top of situations. They have to delegate at times, and if F doesn't have enough moderators that they have trained, that is one of their problems, also. It takes a team to make the entire picture successful. But the team must be on one page and that one page must be known to all. Of course, it's not as simplistic as this, there are many more nuances to the situation.

Very well said. Nothing is in stand-still, all is in flux. That is what I said above.

So, if in disgust people migrate from one site to another and then find that there are Rules also, then one site is as good as the other and there is no need to bash the previous site from whenst they just came from.

So, the perfume lovers who step - on the internet - from Basenotes to Fragrantica to The Perfume Magazine to Parfumo to (fill in the blank) are really the same people who are dealing with the world - in this case the perfume lovers' world - and if there are changing times (Zeitgeist) ... those ideas will be reflected inside the discussions.

Then controversies are carried over into the virtual world.

It is up to each Host Site where they wish to stand and lay down Rules.

I'd have to agree here. After reading some of the responses, I'd laugh to myself. People would preface their answers with "I'm straight, but I used to be experimental", "I watched a movie recently about a lesbian couple, and they were quite charming", "I'm straight, but I've had the pleasure to be experimental", then there were many "I am straight" answers, and of course there was the obligatory "I'm not gay and I don't understand them, but...".
The original question was "We have threads on what men find attractive on women, and what women find attractive on men, so I thought I'd create a thread for gay women.
Also, it would be great if you could specify what type of woman you're into, so as to better gauge your fragrance picks."
So I can see how this topic became out of hand. When people began describing their fantasy lesbian lover, it's not a perfume discussion. But it also was a forum post that seemed a little odd. Why did the poster need to know what type of woman you're into? When we describe our favorite perfumes for our mates, be them male or female, do we ever say what their physical attributes are? And that's what people began answering in their posts, some with pictures,too.So it became a forum of fantasy, not one of actual factual answers, because few gay women were responding.
My first thought was of a person sitting at home imagining what the posters had just written, because they had given images in their responses. It was just weird.

When I first saw the topic, I thought, "that is put here with the intent to stir" (to troll). And great drama did indeed follow.

But, in the midst of the ensuing discussions it was highlighted that some controversial topics are permitted to stand, and others not.
So, it became a big mess.

And a big mess it always will be when opinions clash.

Whether the members ought to clash and fight for equality to be heard?

I don't know ... it seems to me that gay rights ought to be fought about on other platforms than perfume panels.

Pipette, do you know this old joke:

Customer in an ice cream parlour: "First, I am gay and secondly I want a chocolate ice cream."

Waiter: "The first doesn't interest me and the second with or without whipping cream?"

I may say that the gay rights movement in Germany has been the most successful social movement since WWII. We have come a long way from total illegality until 1969 to the cancellation of the last discriminations in the legal system recently.

I don't feel that we have to fight for gay rights that much any longer since most of the battles are won (in Germany). I don't decide to come out to somebody as a political act, I may just tell new friends something about my life as they tell me about theirs.

Back in the eighties I definitely made sure that everybody I had to deal with was aware I was gay (yes, even the waiters at the ice cream parlour). But that was a different time. Should we go back to a more battlesome attitude since Parfumo International is aimed at a global audience with all kinds of situations in different countries? In this case, I wouldn't care if it is a perfume panel or not.

I think it is appropriate to show some presence whenever it fits into the context. No need to hide but maybe no need to write reviews like: "Hey, I am gay and this fragrance smells awful!"

@Apicius, in America, gay-bashing is still here, unfortunately. That is the sad truth. You are very lucky to live in your country with no discrimination. Here, there are many discriminations. In that particular forum, the words were veiled, as I saw. If the forum was specifically for lesbians or bi, then why did others answer? I think that's how things began to get out of control. On top of that, people answering with "I don't understand them, but here's my answer. What does that mean? It's an insult. But the writers of such words don't see it that way. The whole forum became ridiculous and no one would take responsibility for their own words, written in a hidden castigating manner.

I wouldn't say that we live without discrimination in Germany. I doubt that we do enough to ban gay-bashing in schools among pubescent kids. I also wonder if gays and lesbians have their fair share in management positions, science and politics. But open discrimination and anti-gay or anti-lesbian statements is definitely a no-go over here.

A statement like "Personally, I am not gay but..." or "I don't understand them but" is a bit embarrassing, and so it doesn't happen too often. If somebody has to emphazise that he or she is not gay or lesbian before he can make a statement it shows an insecure attitude towards one's own sexual identity. The reader will wonder what kind of personal problems this person may have.

As there are so many users from the USA here, Don and me are interested to learn a little bit about the American mindset. Besides that gay rights topic I think I sensed something like a second level in that discussion. I think there is a strong aversion in parts of US-American forum users against the public discussion of anything vaguely or directly connected with sex. This attitude seems quite common and not reserved to a specific group like conservatives or religious fundamentalists.

I see complaints about "panty dropper threads" on the F-site (what is this, BTW?) I see statements that perfume sites should be "family friendly". A while ago, somebody complained about a photo taken from a perfume ad and displayed here at Parfumo which showed a man in his undies. I do not really understand what is behind this.

On the German site, I do not see such a controversy. I we ever had a thread like "What perfume do you wear when you have sex" people would presumably make fun of it and add some silly remarks, but that's it. It would not become a problem.