This is just nonsense. Far from making the World more inclusive, this authoritarian movement wants to exclude freedom of thought. As if the term "Oriental" would ever be construed as an offensive appellation and not a word to describe a type of perfumery. It would be quite laughable were it not how dangerous thought control has become.
@Cardea in general in the United States, "oriental" is seen as a very backwards/uneducated/dated way of referring to all East Asians. I don't think it has the same connotations as the n-word, but people will definitely look at you weird if you call someone "oriental," and most probably think you're racist.
My God, we are discussing perfumes, not place of origin. Context matters, or have we become devoid of any form of common sense?
@Cardea thank you for your insightful and enlightening discussion. I agree with almost all you say. I especially agree with the point you made about "oriental" applying to a fragrance genre and not to ethnicity or people.
However, I am not so sure whether I agree with you and @Johnjssmith that actual usage of the term even by German speakers usually adheres to that innocent pattern, at least when it comes to describing an individual perfume, in contrast to discussing perfume categories. And we are not talking about a few "stupid people" here. I can recall a number of statements on Parfumo, by users whom I would never suspect of stupidity or racism, where "oriental" is used in conjunction with cliché Arabian Nights imagery, swirling garments and allusions to sensuous allure. I believe that's definitely orientalism. (Of course, I can recall only a few anecdotes, and as there is no functionality to easily examine the totality of perfume statements on Parfumo, I see no way how I could produce empirical evidence.) I also believe that enjoying such day dreams is legitimate. The perfume world as a whole is largely a world of dreams and free-floating associations when seen exclusively from a consumer view point, as is the case on this platform. Why try to remove a well-understood way of expressing such dreams evoked by an olfactory experience? If there were people who were offended by it, I would mostly think they were making a categorical mistake.
As should be clear from what @Apicius said about the fragrance hierarchy on Parfumo, there is also a great difference between the classes of perfume that would be officially classified as oriental here and those that @Cardea would presumably call "oriental". I myself rarely use the term because it is so very imprecise and could well dispense with it entirely. I would not feel the need for a substitute either. (And agree that a translation of "ambery" into German would be a very poor one.)
But although I doubt its usefulness and apparently do not share the usual associations (to me, an "oriental scent" is mostly the same as a "Christmas scent"), I would not take it away from others.
Should stop using this category asap.
There is no scent which smells "typical Geman" or smells "typical Balkan" or smells "typical gay" or smells "typical African" or "typical female"..."oriental" has also many, many different facets.
Should stop using this category asap.
There is no scent which smells "typical Geman" or smells "typical Balkan" or smells "typical gay" or smells "typical African" or "typical female"..."oriental" has also many, many different facets.
@MrWhite We have to find out a useful correct (English) translation for all people. You are German. I live in Switzerland.
Main accords: "oriental" change to "ambery" is not perfect, I think.
@SebastianM "Christ-mas scent" is also not perfect. 
Shalimar Extrait main accords! 
Shalimar Eau de Parfum
Youth-Dew Eau de Parfum
Obsession Eau de Parfum
Must de Cartier Eau de Toilette In German "Orientals"
Madelyn Chung: Essay, Does anyone else think it's weird, that "Oriental" is a midely used perfume category?
www.parfumo.de/Benutzer/MCPS/Blog/Eintrag/orie ntalisch-darf-man-den-ausdruck-noch-nutzen
We should all bear in mind that we are talking here about changing a term that is apparently part of common parlance, at least in some language areas.
In my opinion, it is not helpful to discuss this at such an elevated level that the normal user is excluded
Language should unite, not divide. Due to difficulties which mainly stem from different international language usage, we exclude the majority of those who just use such terms as they are commonly used in their region. Also we place them under general suspicion of being racist.
We should all bear in mind that we are talking here about changing a term that is apparently part of common parlance, at least in some language areas.
In my opinion, it is not helpful to discuss this at such an elevated level that the normal user is excluded
Language should unite, not divide. Due to difficulties which mainly stem from different international language usage, we exclude the majority of those who just use such terms as they are commonly used in their region. Also we place them under general suspicion of being racist.
@Cardea Correct USA - 2016 Mr. Obama dislikes the WORD "Oriental"!
You live in Germany, I am in Switzerland: We both knew sweets in German named: Mohrenkopf or Negerkuss. Korrect: Schokokuss.
In English: Angels' head, whipped-wiry, whipped-lean. (Canad.) kulin-whipped cookie. A kind of small chocolate-covered cake filled with foamy sugar.
French: tête de nègre. The well known Swiss Brand DUBLER did not change the name 2020. Not aviable in supermarkets!
@Cardea in general in the United States, "oriental" is seen as a very backwards/uneducated/dated way of referring to all East Asians. I don't think it has the same connotations as the n-word, but people will definitely look at you weird if you call someone "oriental," and most probably think you're racist.
My God, we are discussing perfumes, not place of origin. Context matters, or have we become devoid of any form of common sense?
@Ldelvalle In that comment I was answering a specific question posed by another user about the general connotations of the word "oriental" in the USA. Which is why I began that comment with the phrase "in general." In my prior comment I discussed connotations in terms of perfumery. No need to get offended, no one's trying to restrict your speech. I swear conservatives are more sensitive than liberals these days.
@Apicius it seems to me that there are only 7 sub-categories within "Oriental notes" and all of them can be re-classified in other categories. Some of them already are, such as Benzoin, Myrrh, and Incense, which are also classified under Resinous notes, and Patchouli, which is also classified under Earthy notes. My suggestions would be:
Agarwood -> Woody
Benzoin -> Resinous
Incense -> Resinous
Myrrh -> Resinous
Patchouli -> Earthy
Tonka Bean -> Gourmand
Vanilla -> Gourmand
What I had to learn in life: When someone says "I feel offended." don't reply instantly "But I didn't mean it!". Instead, listen. For our oriental discussion I feel that I need to listen more. This as a preface. Therefore, my current conclusion that Amber may not be a good replacement for Oriental, is tentative.
Oriental is an olfactive genre. Like Fougère and Chypre, invented between the 80ies of 19th and the 20ies of 20th century. All three are abstract expressions which do not intend to smell naturalistically like fern, Cyprus, or Orient. While Fougère and Chypre may not be based on offensive stereotypes, Oriental is. It stands for a combination of ingredients from the "mystic Orient", reminiscent of the East (with some lack of geographical knowledge), and not the "rationale Occident": Most important Vanilla (Réunion, Madagascar, Java, ...) supported by ambergris. Fruity and spicy top notes, a heart composed of sweet and balsamic notes, as well as exotic resins of Arabia* (funnily enough, including labdanum which is mainly from European origin). I am sure "Orient" was a place of longing for François Coty and Jacques Guerlain, and their racism was positively connoted. Nevertheless, all variations of racism are offensive. So, replace Oriental? I am undecided. Perfumery as cultural achievement reflects its era, its sociocultural environment. Maybe we can learn from this term and its application? While undecided I will not use "Oriental" without context anymore.
Anyhow, to my opinion Amber(y) is not suitable to replace Oriental. Amber is a multifaceted odor note recalling natural ambergris.* Or a category/family of odor notes with quite different siblings whether ambroxan or ambergris-based or vanilla / labdanum. At least all these notes contain ambroxan (pure, from ambergris, from labdanum). Often, emerging woody ambers are seen as a subgroup of this family, too. Of course, many Orientals contain an amber base accord. But also Fougères. And some amber perfumes do not follow classical genres at all. Amber is an odor note or a family of odor notes, but no genre. Oriental is a genre but like Fougère and Chypre no family of odor notes.
* “Scent and Chemistry - The Molecular World of Odors”, Günter Ohloff, Wilhelm Pickenhagen, Philipp Kraft, 2011 p. 49ff.
@Cardea in general in the United States, "oriental" is seen as a very backwards/uneducated/dated way of referring to all East Asians. I don't think it has the same connotations as the n-word, but people will definitely look at you weird if you call someone "oriental," and most probably think you're racist.
My God, we are discussing perfumes, not place of origin. Context matters, or have we become devoid of any form of common sense?
@Ldelvalle In that comment I was answering a specific question posed by another user about the general connotations of the word "oriental" in the USA. Which is why I began that comment with the phrase "in general." In my prior comment I discussed connotations in terms of perfumery. No need to get offended, no one's trying to restrict your speech. I swear conservatives are more sensitive than liberals these days.
As if I am offended by your desire to defend the indefensible and still think of yourself as reasonable. The only one offended is you. But yes unfortunately, the hard Right has started playing the same victimhood games the hard Left has been playing for years. Again, this is a silly argument. "Oriental" connotes a style of perfumery. Anyone who wants omit its use is just engaging in Orwellian virtue signaling. It used to be that multiculturalism was meant to celebrate all of our ethnicities and cultural mores, now it become a way to suppress anything that gives affront to ideological purity. And sure enough perfumery is an international industry, however, apparently the powers that be find it offensive to mention a region within the World of Perfumery.
I would have thought they would have started with the low hanging fruit such as, "Panty droppers."
it's a useful term in describing objects (traditional oriental vases and carpets differ from occidental ones, right?), the trouble is when the object gets intricately tied to western projections of racist/orientalist fantasies. but most perfume marketing is about fantasy anyway, oriental or occidental. perhaps discussing the term's usage is a way of lifting that veil of fantasy rather than "signaling virtue".
Nez did a good two-part essay on the category "Oriental" in perfume and the problem of trying to replace the term with "ambery." They basically conclude that we can't and shouldn't erase the Oriental category in the ongoing history of perfume, but that it must be noted that, as with all things Orientalist, it is an Occidental, colonialist view and reflective of both particular historical moments and political and cultural positions of power. "Orientalist" (which is an accurate category in other media such as art, dance, architecture, etc.) may be the better modern replacement for the "Oriental" perfume category.
hey everyone, I'm from the German perfume site. The topic affects me because I personally deal with language
I think a ban on language is far too exaggerated in this case.
"Orient" is a colloquial geographical term that doesn't offend anyone. Anyone who feels offended by a scent being described as "oriental" should first look for the problem within themselves.
Can we please refrain from telling other people what is and is not offensive and/or telling people, who are offended by a specific terminology, they are the problem? That would be great.
General Comment: To me, "Orient/oriental" are antiquated and inaccurate, not only in perfumery but also as geographical terms. It is definitely inappropriate and offensive to describe people as "oriental." I think there are better descriptors, like amber florals or vanillic florals, but I am not keen on bans.
Can we please refrain from telling other people what is and is not offensive and/or telling people, who are offended by a specific terminology, they are the problem? That would be great.
General Comment: To me, "Orient/oriental" are antiquated and inaccurate, not only in perfumery but also as geographical terms. It is definitely inappropriate and offensive to describe people as "oriental." I think there are better descriptors, like amber florals or vanillic florals, but I am not keen on bans.
My thoughts exactly. 👍
Speaking as someone from Asia this whole debate is pretty demoralising. Personally I would rather not see the word 'oriental' because of the way it conjures up the 'mystic orient' myth and associated negative feelings. It is also inaccurate as a description.
While I understand that it's difficult to change a historical term, it is hardly an unprecedented ordeal. Other fields in the humanities have also encountered similar issues and embraced evolving language as a necessity.
Maybe I'm naive but why we can't develop a new word for this category? If amber is too confusing, what about resinous? warm spicy? Or straight up call it Shalimar? Why is it so hard and why can't we try?
My vote would be to change this outdated term as many other platforms have done so.
Thank you so much @FreshKatsu for providing your point of view. And couldn't agree more, I'm thinking exactly the same way.
I don't like the term "ambery". It's a trash can of a word, everything goes in there. People use that word for perfumes with amber accord _and_ for perfumes with ambergris. But ambergris is very different from amber, it's animalic. Not to mention a slew of synthetic ambers and amberwoods also lumped into this word, and they have their own distinct character.
There is no good option for oriental perfumes, really. It's not just about the amber accord - it's about the amber accord and vanilla and spices and florals, all mixed together in an opulent and sweet way. You cannot call them "Middle Eastern" because the modern term implies a modern perfume (those with oud and saffron, probably), but oriental perfumes are a historical genre. "Resinous" is not a good description either, because it's not just about resins.
I am somewhat confused about mentions of Barack Obama, the USA, and the American Asians. The perfumery term was coined well before these issues. I just finished reading a perfume book by Eugene Rimmel (the one who founded the Rimmel brand), written in the second half of 19th century. From the way this term is used in the book, I can gather that the original meaning was either Ottoman Empire specifically, or the Middle Eastern region in general. China, Japan etc. were called "The Far East" in the book. That was the meaning of the term "Oriental" when the perfumery term was coined. It has nothing to do with the USA or its population, I'm afraid.
Of course, we can ban the perfumery term, rename the Agatha Christie's novel, and change the rules of chess (otherwise it's obviously very racist) while we're at it. However, I think if people want to fight for the right of Asian Americans or any other minorities in any country, it might be worth considering working with the MPs in the respective parliaments, organizing initiative groups, writing petitions, voting on elections etc. I suspect these actions might do more good for the minorities than arguing on the Internet about perfumery terms or banning words.
In my language, it's an outdated term that is not used in geography or culture anymore. It is pretty much restricted to perfumes, I don't even hear "oriental cuisine" or any similar expressions. I don't think the term Oriental is used to refer to people in any language in Europe, correct me if I'm wrong.
Asians (in Asia) would probably be dumbfounded if you asked them if they found the term offensive. Westerners in Anglophone countries (and those under the significant influence of Anglosphere) are offended on their behalf.
Personally, I don't care either way. It's fair that you ask in an open discussion, but as we have seen with such cases across any sphere of society, if you bend your knee now, it will inevitably create more problems for you in the future. If people agree there is a more precise/less confusing word to replace the term oriental, then change it, ofc.
Banning language is to ban free thinking and speech. Someone should send the British Society of Perfumers a copy of a book from their fellow countryman, which they apparently never read - George Orwell's 1984.
When I think of Oriental for fragrances, I think of something that is full of the spice of life. And that is not a bad thing.
“Parfumo has been asked by a user to remove the term „Oriental“ from the fragrance notes database”
In my opinion this sounds like ‘trouble making’, along the lines of ‘I’m offended! I demand you respect my feelings!’
I wear a fragrance called Noir d’Orient from Evody. If the user finds word oriental unacceptable, are they going to write to Evody asking them to change the name of their fragrance?
Memo has a fragrance, Oriental Leather. Lalique, Oriental Zinc. Les indemodables, Oriental Velours.
Will Parfumo ‘censor’ these fragrance names if they remove oriental from the fragrance notes database? If not, doesn’t that imply a double standard?
In my opinion this sounds like ‘trouble making’, along the lines of ‘I’m offended! I demand you respect my feelings!’
I wear a fragrance called Noir d’Orient from Evody. If the user finds word oriental unacceptable, are they going to write to Evody asking them to change the name of their fragrance?
Memo has a fragrance, Oriental Leather. Lalique, Oriental Zinc. Les indemodables, Oriental Velours.
Will Parfumo ‘censor’ these fragrance names if they remove oriental from the fragrance notes database? If not, doesn’t that imply a double standard?
Once again, can we stop telling people what terminology should offend them? No one here is the arbitrator of what is or is not offensive. Telling people they are "trouble-making" because they don't share your opinion about the term "oriental" strikes me as a far more problematic and hypocritical than those who find "oriental" offensive or antiquated or inaccurate. You're actually asking people to "respect *your* feelings" while denigrating the feelings of those whose opinion differs from yours. As a perfume name, I see no real issue, but as a fragrance classification, "oriental" is problematic for a number of reasons.
